The Treehouse

This is the forum for the Treehouse servers in Pokemon Online and Pokemon Showdown!.


    Weather in OU: Should it be Banned or Not?

    Share
    avatar
    harsha
    Server Admin Alumnus
    Server Admin Alumnus

    Join Date : 2011-07-13
    Posts : 634

    Weather in OU

    Post by harsha on Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:07 am

    Sufat Sheleg wrote:Now that you mention it...Landorus isn't terribly common, even on Sandstorm teams. I've only seen them using in like 1 out of 10 sandstorm teams.

    I believe that's because Gliscor is more useful than Landorus. There are so many useful sweepers on Sandstorm teams like Excadrill, Terrakion, and Garchomp that Landorus isn't even necessary. Gliscor can function as both a wall and a set-up sweeper and in my mind, he is more useful. My sandstorm team uses Gliscor, not Landorus. Both are ruined by ice moves like ice beam. They are not broken.
    avatar
    Trinitrotoluene
    Administrator
    Administrator

    smile ◠‿◠
    Join Date : 2011-04-09
    Posts : 717
    「st☆rlight」

    Re: Weather in OU: Should it be Banned or Not?

    Post by Trinitrotoluene on Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:49 pm

    ThePurpleMeerkat wrote:Weather in general shouldn't be banned: My suggestions:

    Ban Politoed, Reason: What makes Poli broken is the everlasting rain. While Rain Dance can be stalled out, Drizzle makes it so your opponent can't do anything besides hit you with priority moves. If it was just one broken pokemon, like Kingdra, then it'd be better to just ban Kingdra, but Omastar, Ludicolo, Kabutops, Toxicroak and many more are a lot harder to beat with rain, and together, almost impossible. to beat

    The only problem with Rain teams is the threat of Swift Swimmers, who get a STAB and Speed boost, which is promptly addressed by Ferrothorn. Other forms of rain abuse (Hydration, Dry Skin, Thunder spam) are easier to deal with because they're less offensively adept than the Swift Swimmers. I'd rather pass something like Aldaron's Proposal for the Smogon server. It lets us keep the weather, but ban the problems with it. Drizzle by itself is easily checked, but Drizzle + Swift Swim is nearly impossible to weather out without a weather of your own.

    ThePurpleMeerkat wrote:Ban Landorus and Excadrill: Garchomp, Sandslash, and Gliscor etc are not broken under sand. Unlike rain, where everything is pretty much impossible to beat, there are only two main problems with sand, which is why Tyranitar and Hippowdon should be allowed. Landorus however kills pretty much every sand team, while Excadrill kills most offensive teams. Together they are an awesome duo, and tbh are broken.

    "counters":
    Slowbro: 2hkod by a +2 Jolly Air Bloon EQ from Exca
    Suicune: read above
    Conkeldurr OHKOd by Excadrill set mentioned
    Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs 4hp Excadrill: 2hko. Excadrill wins anyway.

    +2 Landorus EQ:
    Slowbro OHKOd
    Suicune OHKOd

    Most, if not all, good weather teams have methods of dealing with potential abusers on their opponent's side. Landorus and Excadrill are blocked by Skarmory, Bronzong, and Gliscor and thus, must employ an additional member to take them out, causing half of the team to be predictable, giving the one with the counters an advantage. Regarding your damage calcs, you're implying that the OHKOs with Landorus's +2 Earthquake happen 100% of the time. Well, that's only true with Stealth Rock support and sandstorm damage. Should the sand not be there, those OHKOs turn into 2HKOs. If anything, Garchomp is the most broken sand sweeper in existence. Ask anyone that's faced my sand team. Sand Rush Sandslash hasn't been released yet, so I can't say anything about it. Gliscor walls more often than sweeps should it be using Poison Heal.

    ThePurpleMeerkat wrote:Hail: Completely fine.

    Agreed.

    ThePurpleMeerkat wrote:Sun: Ban Ninetales. Same reason as Drizzletoed really.

    Ninetales isn't nearly as bulky as the other weather setters, and it has a debilitating weakness to Stealth Rock. The benefits of Sun are split between the Chlorophyllers and the Fire-types. Most share common, crippling weaknesses.

    ThePurpleMeerkat wrote:Why ban Swift Swimmers though? They're too many of them to ban. Kabutops makes a good swords dancer outside of rain, Omastar is good to set up hazards, and Ludicolo can be a good staller, Kingdra can do basically everything. What can Politoed do besides make everlasting rain? This is why it should be Poli who goes, not the swift swimmers.

    Also, Weavile? Seriously? Weavile is NEVER used, and futhermore, using it simply to battle Landorus is overcentrilization, not that it can do that very well. It can't switch into ANY attack Landorus has, so you have to let something die first, and even then your opponent can simply switch out and wait until Weavile dies to whatever else you have.
    Also, you didn't name a counter to Excadrill, just implied "anything bulky".
    and Jellicent? a +2 Jolly Air Balloon Excadrill does 77.23 - 90.84 to 252/224 Jellicent (standard physically bulky wall), a guarenteed OHKO including sandstorm and Stealth Rock, and goddamn likely without even without inputting the sandstorm damage. Also, you said "special wall like Jellicent", but this is a physical variant, proving it is not a counter. Also, nobody has specified a single counter to Landorus, the only ones I've found are Gliscor and Skarmory, both of which can be taken out pretty easily, and aren't around much late game.

    PS: Ice Shard from LO Jolly Weavile doesn't even 2HKO Excadrill, which means you need more than one user of priority to actually revenge kill it, one of which having Mach Punch. Technician Breloom can OHKO it though I guess.

    ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
    Harsha:
    You say "135 Attack" like it's bad. It's not, a +2 EQ kills a lot of stuff, and Landorus kills even more. *cough*Jolly+2LOLandorus OHKOs 252/252 Hippowdon when including very small previous damage*cough*

    Also, Toxicroak first. Sub beats WoW or Twave, so then what can, say, Jellicent do?
    Shadow Ball is the only move that can break a substitute, and Toxicroak gets most of the hp back via dry skin. Meanwhile, +1 Sucker Punch 2HKOs, which means Toxicroak can just sub while Jellicent recovers, and get up multiple Bulk Ups, giving a better chance of sweeping. Toxicroak is faster too. Fails to OHKO? Maybe, but not after a few bulk ups, which is arguably his best set.

    If everyone used Non-Weather: Yes, then it would be used, but I could say the same thing about Gen 3, people just don't. Also, the few people that do play it are rarely on at the same time, so after waiting for ten mins or so, they give up. Nobody plays it. Also, people DON'T often play LC or CC. I haven't seen one on Treehouse yet. And a server, maybe, but that's a different server, not Treehouse. That's the entire point.


    PS: Not many people play CC or Monotype, compared to OU, and I'm talking about Treehouse in general. Sure it's 5th Gen, but that doesn't mean people don't play other gens. People on Shoddy were content to play Gen IV instead of getting PO for a while. And yes, Ferrothorn does have a crap attack stat. If Excadrill's 135 Attack stat isn't very good, then Ferro's 94 is just plain shitty.

    Let me put this lightly: Swift Swimmers alone shouldn't be banned. It's the combination of Swift Swim and the everlasting rain provided by Drizzle being on the same team that should be banned. If you just so happen to carry a Swift Swim Kingdra on your sun team, then that's alright, because you don't have Politoed. Now, should your opponent kill off your Ninetales and set the rain up, then your opponent's at fault for bringing the rain in to facilitate your Kingdra sweep. Alternatively, should your Kingdra carry Rain Dance, then you're not at fault either because the rain can then be stalled out. "I've found are Gliscor and Skarmory, both of which can be taken out pretty easily, and aren't around much late game." Skarmory can be taken out by Magnezone, so yes, your point is partially correct. However, Gliscor is more resilient than your post leads a reader to believe. Most good players preserve their Gliscor until the end, and even then, the Gliscor is in good shape thanks to Poison Heal.

    Many of the people who frequent the Treehouse play Challenge Cup. Looking at the amount of tournaments ran over the course of my time on Treehouse (more than 1 year), a little over half of those were Challenge Cup tournaments.

    ThePurpleMeerkat wrote:You ARE joking, right?

    with A: Nobody plays that tier. Same with Little Cup, Challenge Cup, VGC, Gen 3, and Monotype (among more), nobody plays them, and I mean EVER. We need less tiers. Everyone plays DW or Wifi, simply because nobody plays the other tiers. I mean the main three used tiers: OU, Ubers, and UU. Nobody uses the other tiers and so everyone just bandwagons and starts playing OU, whether they like it or not. If people actually played it, then I would, but they dont. Case closed.

    I can agree with you that less tiers are needed, but you're wrong in suggesting that Little Cup isn't played on. I, alongside others, play that as well. Random people who visit the Treehouse play Advance and GSC, and they were implemented successfully by the dev team, so they're here to stay. Sufat Sheleg, NinjaKitteh, Nobody (the user here), and I are huge Monotype fans, and I know that I haven't listed them all out. You're right about the band-wagon with Dream World and Wifi, but that's because Wifi was set as the default tier, and those with unreleased Dream World abilities are placed in the parallel Dream World tier that corresponds to their supposed Wifi tier should they not have had said unreleased Dream World abilities. As you said, case closed.

    ThePurpleMeerkat wrote:B: I made a point on that. Weather in general shouldn't be banned, only certain aspects of it. I do however disagree with the counters thing you mentioned.

    Name ONE single pokémon that can kill both Landorus and Excadrill, or can successfully counter Kingdra Omastar Ludicolo Kabutops and Toxicroak. You simply can't counter them. Also, don't talk about that bullshit Ferrothorn, sure it can set up entry hazards, but half the weather sweepers also have set up moves and can just use stat boosting moves. Thunder Wave? lol Landorus and Excadrill. Some use Gyro Ball, some use Power Whip. Gyro ball gets walled by pretty much every rain sweeper, provided they can avoid being 2HKOd, which quite a lot can considering how crap Ferrothorn's attack stat is. Power Whip has low pp and can be stalled out, and despite the high base power it can't really kill much.

    This point was depressing to read, but I'll respond anyway. Bronzong stops all sand sweepers in their tracks with a moveset of Gyro Ball, Hidden Power Ice, a filler move, and Earthquake. Yes, it must watch for Excadrill should it have X-Scissor and a Swords Dance under its belt, but it's the most reliable counter we know of. If that fails, then priority, such as Azumarill's Aqua Jet for the both of them, Ice Shard for Landorus, or Conkeldurr's Mach Punch for Excadrill, does the job. Gliscor can do the same, but it must watch for Hidden Power Ice from Landorus. As Sufat Sheleg mentioned, Air Balloon is a great way to make situational checks arise, but those all fall when they switch in on the wrong move. Ferrothorn is a fine check to most, if not all Swift Swimmers, as it resists their STAB, and in the case of Qwilfish, is immune to one of them. Sure it can't do anything to Toxicroak, but that's why you have 6 team members. Power Whip has as much PP as Earthquake (16), and Ferrothorn's Attack stat (94) is just slightly lower than Gliscor's (95) when uninvested, and I don't see you going on about Gliscor's "bullshit attack stat." Tell me, who in their right mind would go and use Thunder Wave on a Ground type? Regarding Toxicroak, Gengar and Gliscor make quick work of it by either bring faster than it and predicting with subs (Gengar), or being bulky enough to stomach a blow from it (Gliscor). On the off chance it does have Ice Punch, Gliscor is OHKOed, but more often than not, it will carry Substitute as its last move. Those with Ice Punch are stopped by the bulky waters that roam OU, namely Slowbro and Jellicent, who are immune to Drain Punch, can outstall Sucker Punch, and take little from Ice Punch. Nasty Plot variants fail to dent Blissey and Chansey unless they get to +6, and even that can be foiled by pHazing.

    ThePurpleMeerkat wrote:Air Balloon is too situational though, and often you'll find that relying on it doesn't always work, and what ice type moves? As mentioned, all the bulky waters are OHKOd by +2 Landorus, which leaves nothing but Donphan, who sucks with Ice Shard and can't use it on anything besides 4x, making it useless otherwise. Donphan and Mamoswine are the only real "checks" for Landorus, and even then, they aren't counters, only revenge killers. If you have to let something die in order to bring it in, then it's killed something and therefore done it's job. Why did we ban Garchomp last Gen? Because it had a guarenteed kill. If we're going to follow that rule, it's only fair that Landorus should be banned also.

    PS: Don't start an argument about Jirachi or Machamp getting a guarenteed kill, because they aren't valid arguments. They're luck based and ergo can be stopped with luck of your own. Landorus however doesn't need luck, and will get a kill 4/5 games if played correctly.

    Read my above commentary regarding Air Balloon and how mispredicting can cost one a check. Running some damage calcs revealed that those OHKOs on the bulky waters are by chance, and are not guaranteed. However, the chances of a OHKO in the sand are more than half for most of them. The best counters for Landorus are those that resist or are immune to Earthquake naturally and can stomach a Stone Edge, namely Bronzong and Gliscor. "Why did we ban Garchomp last Gen? Because it had a guarenteed kill." That isn't correct. Chomp was banned last generation because of its Swampert-like bulk (which most sweepers then didn't have, Speed that broke past most of OU then, and an Attack stat that, even when unboosted, let it rend just about everything. It could even take Ice-type attacks with the aid of Yache Berry, letting it get that one set-up turn it needed to get KOs on its opponent's team. If we were to ban on that obscure ruling that you've so dearly promoted in that post of yours, then everything we know of in OU that is even slightly offensive (Breloom, Conkeldurr, Dragonite, Weavile, Reuniclus, and just about every other attacker in OU) and had a boosting move that positively affected their respective offensive stat would be banned because they can get guaranteed kills by getting that one set-up turn they needed to attack.


    Last edited by Cartoon Physics on Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:01 pm; edited 6 times in total (Reason for editing : Indeed.)


    __________________

    3ds fc: 0173-1523-3949
    pokémon x: rebecca
    pokémon y: lincoln
    twitter handle: @246_Tritone
    np: calibre - half full - shelf life vol. 2
    avatar
    ThePurpleMeerkat

    Join Date : 2011-07-16
    Posts : 12
    England

    Re: Weather in OU: Should it be Banned or Not?

    Post by ThePurpleMeerkat on Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:51 pm

    Sufat. Air Balloon Heatran is used 6% of the time, apparently. So you'd have to go through 15+ battles in order to find someone with one. Also, with Stealth Rock, 4 hp Chandelure is OHKOd by an Adamant Air Balloon Excadrill. And as mentioned, Air Balloon is situational. More often than not you'll find it breaks before finding an Earthquake user. Rock Slide from said Excadrill has 80% to kill Rotom-H, a levitate user you mentioned.

    Also, for the record, renvenge killers are NOT counters. a Counter is something that can switch INTO said pokémon, take whatever move it uses, and kill or force that pokémon out. Weavile is killed by anything Exca or Landorus has and is therefore not a counter.

    Harsha. Gliscor only really uses Ice Fang on Swords Dance sets, which seem to be going down in popularity due to the rise of toxicstall Gliscor.
    I have still yet to see an Ice Beam Lati@s. Ice Beam Latias is used 8%. Ice Beam Latios is used 12%. It just doesn't happen. Also, Landorus is extremely underrated. With a swords dance boost it can OHKO or 2HKO basically anything in the game. People tend to use stuff like Terrakion not because it's better but because of typing. People overestimate typing and decide whether things are good or not purely on typing, way too often. It's why Machamp isn't used anymore. People choose Gliscor as a wall and get rid of Landorus due to same typing.

    ____

    Physics:

    Rain: I'd actually be fine with this as it'd let Rain Dance get some glory while still allowing rain stall to be a non-gimmick strategy. Not only that but it also stops it from being too broken. Agreed.

    I mostly agree with this, but yes, Landorus does OHKO most stuff. Also, Stealth Rock probably will be up as both sandstorm starters are considered quite bulky and are mainly used as defensive stealth rockers anyway. Sandstorm teams are full of rock/steel/ground types and will easily get Stealth Rock up. And that brings me to my previous argument. Beating weather with weather. So far I haven't found many counters at all for weather besides other weather and a few walls. (Gliscor, Ferrothorn, and Skarmory). Chances are in a sandstorm team, you're going to have sandstorm and Stealth Rock up.

    Sun: While Ninetales isn't particallly bulky, it does learn Will-o-Wisp to cripple physical attackers, and some nice bulk. But it's the Chlorophyll issue that I'm worried about. Similarly to SwiftSwim and Rain, something like Venusaur can switch in with it's bulk, Sleep Powder something, and proceed to +2 in both stats thanks to a boosted Growth.

    I kind of agree with you for most of the stuff you wrote though.

    TL;DR: Agree with most stuff you said.

    Response to your TL;DR: you didn't actually say anything about that in the text, so it's not really a tl;dr tbh.
    avatar
    Sufat Sheleg

    Treehouse's resident spriter.
    Join Date : 2011-06-27
    Posts : 28
    In your fridge, eating all your ice cream.

    Re: Weather in OU: Should it be Banned or Not?

    Post by Sufat Sheleg on Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:06 pm

    OK. Banning Exca, I can see. It's not unreasonable. However, I'm still not sold on Landorus.
    avatar
    Trinitrotoluene
    Administrator
    Administrator

    smile ◠‿◠
    Join Date : 2011-04-09
    Posts : 717
    「st☆rlight」

    Re: Weather in OU: Should it be Banned or Not?

    Post by Trinitrotoluene on Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:14 pm

    Sufat Sheleg wrote:OK. Banning Exca, I can see. It's not unreasonable. However, I'm still not sold on Landorus.

    Personally, I don't see the need to ban any of the sand sweepers. Everything except Mewtwo, Reshiram, and Arceus has at least one counter, and Excadrill, despite its dominating power and speed, has several. One, it can't do enough damage to Gliscor, Skarmory, or Bronzong should it not have a Life Orb, and most Excadrill users these days use Air Balloon because they think that a temporary Ground immunity is worth it. Landorus has a permanent Ground immunity and the ability to have more power with Sand Force. Factoring Sand Force in, Landorus has a base 195 power Earthquake and a base 130 Stone Edge to abuse with a good base 125 Attack stat and a base 101 Speed stat.


    Last edited by Cartoon Physics on Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:29 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Changed one word.)


    __________________

    3ds fc: 0173-1523-3949
    pokémon x: rebecca
    pokémon y: lincoln
    twitter handle: @246_Tritone
    np: calibre - half full - shelf life vol. 2
    avatar
    ThePurpleMeerkat

    Join Date : 2011-07-16
    Posts : 12
    England

    Re: Weather in OU: Should it be Banned or Not?

    Post by ThePurpleMeerkat on Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:49 pm

    I agree with Physics. Landorus is extremely underrated and if anything, better than Excadrill. The problem with countering sandstorm teams though is that ALL the counters are walls, which effectively gets rid of a few strategies, such as double screen hyper offense, double dragon, spike offense, and basically any type of offense. This is the problem I'm having, anything besides balance, stall or weather gets beaten easily.
    avatar
    harsha
    Server Admin Alumnus
    Server Admin Alumnus

    Join Date : 2011-07-13
    Posts : 634

    Weather in OU

    Post by harsha on Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:04 pm

    Landorus does have sheer power. I agree completely with that. However, I always run ice beam on Latios, whom I use on a lot of my OU teams. He can easily switch into a predicted earthquake and ice beam Landorus to its grave. As Rick stated, Garchomp is a much bigger threat in sand. He has a 130 base attack, which IS less than Excadrill's. However, he has the ability sand veil which can cause severe hax problems. Also, his decent speed stat allows him to outspeed a large portion of the meta-game. I can't switch my Latios in with confidence to ice beam him because he may either carry a yache berry, or be scarfed. He is already banned on the Pokemon Online official server, and whether he is banned or not on treehouse really doesn't matter to me. I just believe he is a much bigger threat than Excadrill (or Landorus).
    avatar
    Trinitrotoluene
    Administrator
    Administrator

    smile ◠‿◠
    Join Date : 2011-04-09
    Posts : 717
    「st☆rlight」

    Re: Weather in OU: Should it be Banned or Not?

    Post by Trinitrotoluene on Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:09 pm

    ThePurpleMeerkat wrote:I agree with Physics. Landorus is extremely underrated and if anything, better than Excadrill. The problem with countering sandstorm teams though is that ALL the counters are walls, which effectively gets rid of a few strategies, such as double screen hyper offense, double dragon, spike offense, and basically any type of offense. This is the problem I'm having, anything besides balance, stall or weather gets beaten easily.
    Not all sand counters are walls. See: Azumarill.

    Let's list how successful I've been with the listed strategies that have been "rid of":

    Dual Screens Hyper Offense (peaked at #4, used with Double Dragon)

    Double Dragon (peaked #4, used with dual screens)

    Spikes Offense (was laddering with it until the server crashed, reached #12)

    Bulky Offense (can be classified further depending on the components of the team, see Spikes Offense and Double Dragon)


    __________________

    3ds fc: 0173-1523-3949
    pokémon x: rebecca
    pokémon y: lincoln
    twitter handle: @246_Tritone
    np: calibre - half full - shelf life vol. 2
    avatar
    ThePurpleMeerkat

    Join Date : 2011-07-16
    Posts : 12
    England

    Re: Weather in OU: Should it be Banned or Not?

    Post by ThePurpleMeerkat on Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:24 am

    Harsha wrote:Landorus does have sheer power. I agree completely with that. However, I always run ice beam on Latios, whom I use on a lot of my OU teams. He can easily switch into a predicted earthquake and ice beam Landorus to its grave. As Rick stated, Garchomp is a much bigger threat in sand. He has a 130 base attack, which IS less than Excadrill's. However, he has the ability sand veil which can cause severe hax problems. Also, his decent speed stat allows him to outspeed a large portion of the meta-game. I can't switch my Latios in with confidence to ice beam him because he may either carry a yache berry, or be scarfed. He is already banned on the Pokemon Online official server, and whether he is banned or not on treehouse really doesn't matter to me. I just believe he is a much bigger threat than Excadrill (or Landorus).

    So wait, WHY is Chomp better?
    Ice Beam: On Wifi, Ice Beam is only used 10% of the time, and besides, Garchomp is also killed by Ice Beam. PS: Latios outspeeds Chomp.
    Hax: Hax is hax, big deal. Getting a bit of evasion doesn't make it all that much better than Landorus lol.
    Speed: Landorus has pretty good speed too
    Switching: Landorus can have Yache too, big deal. If it's scarfed, then you can just switch into an Earthquake and tbh have an even easier set up.

    tl;dr: Garchomp isn't better than Landorus in general, they do better than each other in different ways. The way you stated it though makes it seem like Landorus is a worse version of Garchomp.
    avatar
    harsha
    Server Admin Alumnus
    Server Admin Alumnus

    Join Date : 2011-07-13
    Posts : 634

    Weather in OU

    Post by harsha on Thu Jul 21, 2011 5:13 pm

    Latios does outspeed Garchomp. I'm just stating that scarfed Garchomp is extremely common, so you can't switch in with comfort. Landorus and Garchomp are very different. I realize that. I was just stating that I believe Garchomp is a bigger threat. Landorus is not usually scarfed because he is a better set-up Pokemon. Latios will ice beam him because he is slower. Yes they can both carry yache berries. I have yet to see a Landorus with a yache berry yet though.
    avatar
    Trinitrotoluene
    Administrator
    Administrator

    smile ◠‿◠
    Join Date : 2011-04-09
    Posts : 717
    「st☆rlight」

    Re: Weather in OU: Should it be Banned or Not?

    Post by Trinitrotoluene on Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:12 am

    From my sand team created 12 / 02 / 10:

    Landlos (Randorosu) (M) @ Yache Berry
    Trait: Sand Power
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Substitute
    - Swords Dance

    Old translation, deal with it.

    Have a nice day.


    __________________

    3ds fc: 0173-1523-3949
    pokémon x: rebecca
    pokémon y: lincoln
    twitter handle: @246_Tritone
    np: calibre - half full - shelf life vol. 2
    avatar
    Trinitrotoluene
    Administrator
    Administrator

    smile ◠‿◠
    Join Date : 2011-04-09
    Posts : 717
    「st☆rlight」

    Re: Weather in OU: Should it be Banned or Not?

    Post by Trinitrotoluene on Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:36 am

    Weather bans have been lifted, so I'm closing this thread. Cheers.


    __________________

    3ds fc: 0173-1523-3949
    pokémon x: rebecca
    pokémon y: lincoln
    twitter handle: @246_Tritone
    np: calibre - half full - shelf life vol. 2

    Sponsored content

    Re: Weather in OU: Should it be Banned or Not?

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:42 pm