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    Weather in OU: Should it be Banned or Not?

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    JonFreeman
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    Weather in OU: Should it be Banned or Not?

    Post by JonFreeman on Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:14 am

    Should weather in OU be banned or not?
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    Nobody

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    Re: Weather in OU: Should it be Banned or Not?

    Post by Nobody on Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:20 am

    Personally I think it shouldn't be, it just depends on the situation though. Suspect
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    Re: Weather in OU: Should it be Banned or Not?

    Post by Kraziub on Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:17 am

    Just Drizzle+SS :3
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    Re: Weather in OU: Should it be Banned or Not?

    Post by Trinitrotoluene on Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:01 am

    Weather is a massive part of OU. That is a given. In fact, it can be claimed that weather has been a massive part of the game for the 4 generations it's been allowed, including Generation V. Banning all weather-related abilities would cause a radical shift in the game and make certain Pokemon unusable (see Tyranitar, Hippopotas and family, Snover and family) because their Dream World personas have not been released yet.

    Now, one may pull the argument that weather makes certain Pokemon "impossible" to deal with. That cannot be questioned. What can be questioned is how can these threats be stopped. Can they be stopped with conventional methods, like priority or paralysis, or do they require some random, obscure Pokemon no one thinks about besides its role given in stopping one threat that would otherwise be dead weight on a standard team. Now, before that question can be answered, let's look at the structure of these weather teams.

    Drizzle: Most Drizzle teams are based around Pokemon that abuse Swift Swim or other tactics based around abusing the permanent rain (e.g. Thunder abuse, Dry Skin stalling, double genie abuse) set by Politoed. The main point that makes the rain broken in relation to the other weather is the fact that it not only supplements the Swift Swimmer's Water STAB, but it also increases their speed. The main Swift Swimmer in question is Kingdra, who isn't frail, but packs a serious punch on either the physical or special side, keeping Kingdra from being walled by one definite Pokemon, considering that at least one out of the four other team members can be employed for the express purpose of dealing with whatever walls are blocking Kingdra's way. These benefits can be realized in other weather conditions, but Pokemon that abuse the sand obtain the boosted speed, but not the boosted STAB (unless they're Landorus). In the sun, the benefits are split between Chlorophyll abusers and the Fire-types that get their STAB boosted by the sun. It's that argument that forces me to push for the Swift Swim + Drizzle combo ban already utilized on Smogon's PO server.

    Drought: Drought teams are much easier to deal with, considering the frailty and common weaknesses shared by many of the abusers (Rock, Fire, Fighting [for Sawsbuck], Ice). As stated above, the benefits experienced by Swift Swimmers in rain are split between the Chlorophyllers and the Fire-types typically used in such a team. While Drizzle abuse teams typically need very little support, Sun teams need much more support given the *frailty* of the sweepers used.

    Sand: Excadrill. The one Pokemon that practically defined OU with its unmatched speed and power and made sand teams nigh on impossible to deal with should an opposing team's Excadrill check be dead. While there are other sand abusers that arguably are more difficult to deal with than Excadrill (e.g. Garchomp, Landorus), it is more than likely to be the centerpiece of sand abuse teams.

    Hail: Can't say much here. There are a few good hail stall teams (read: StallRein), but most can be stopped fairly easily.

    Most of these teams bar the Swift Swim + Drizzle teams can be stopped by simple, conventional means. Sun teams lacking a spinner can be stopped by Stealth Rock, which is nearly ubiquitous. Excadrill is easily walled by several common Pokemon and downed by several common priority moves, and Landorus and Garchomp don't fare much better. Hail teams can also be stopped by Stealth Rock and a good Fighting-type in the wings to force pressure on the opponent.


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    Re: Weather in OU: Should it be Banned or Not?

    Post by Sufat Sheleg on Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:46 pm

    Weather plays a crucial role for many teams. Entire strategies are built around weather. It's simply too common in the OU metagame to ban it without taking down a large number of teams.
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    Weather in OU

    Post by harsha on Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:17 pm

    I personally don't think that weather should be banned in OU. The most common threat on sand storm teams is Excadrill, who is easily countered by bulky waters, such as Jellicent or Suicune. Rain teams mostly boast about 100% accurate thunder and hurricane, but can be shut down by pokemon such as Ferrothorn, a very common wall. As Rick stated earlier, the biggest threat on sunny day teams is either Charizard or Darmanitan, both of which are shut down by Stealth Rocks. Hail... well... 100% accurate blizzards are useful, but not that much to offer, and StallRein/ StallRegice are two fairly easy things to counter as both are extremely slow. Anyways I don't think that weather should be banned from OU, as weather is easily countered. Very Happy
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    Re: Weather in OU: Should it be Banned or Not?

    Post by Sufat Sheleg on Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:45 pm

    Yes but by that same token, why ban anything? Everything has a counter. I don't think that banning things is really fair in OU tier. Everything and every combination of weather/abilities can be countered. It's simply a matter of thinking ahead.
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    Re: Weather in OU: Should it be Banned or Not?

    Post by Trinitrotoluene on Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:02 am

    Sufat Sheleg wrote:Yes but by that same token, why ban anything? Everything has a counter. I don't think that banning things is really fair in OU tier. Everything and every combination of weather/abilities can be countered. It's simply a matter of thinking ahead.

    I can agree with the banning of the over-powering Pokemon like Arceus and Mewtwo, who have no concrete counters in the strictest definition whether it be by versatility for the former or sheer power displayed by the latter. Weather abuse, on the other hand, can be stopped by having a weather of your own or a method of dealing with the abusers. Some people with weather setters don't even abuse the weather and use it as a means of disruption.

    I WILL ADD MORE, SO DON'T RESPOND TO THIS POST YET!


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    Re: Weather in OU: Should it be Banned or Not?

    Post by mobbythemoblin on Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:48 am

    I think banning weather would cause to much of an uproar.

    Although I do beleive it would be fair to give people a choice of a non- weather teir (which may already exsist).

    Seeing as their is not one dominant weather I would say weather is not broken but say everyone decided rain was the best and there was no point in ever using other weathers it would then be a good idea to ban rain (or at least drizzle).
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    Re: Weather in OU: Should it be Banned or Not?

    Post by ThePurpleMeerkat on Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:29 pm

    Weather in general shouldn't be banned: My suggestions:

    Ban Politoed, Reason: What makes Poli broken is the everlasting rain. While Rain Dance can be stalled out, Drizzle makes it so your opponent can't do anything besides hit you with priority moves. If it was just one broken pokemon, like Kingdra, then it'd be better to just ban Kingdra, but Omastar, Ludicolo, Kabutops, Toxicroak and many more are a lot harder to beat with rain, and together, almost impossible. to beat

    Ban Landorus and Excadrill: Garchomp, Sandslash, and Gliscor etc are not broken under sand. Unlike rain, where everything is pretty much impossible to beat, there are only two main problems with sand, which is why Tyranitar and Hippowdon should be allowed. Landorus however kills pretty much every sand team, while Excadrill kills most offensive teams. Together they are an awesome duo, and tbh are broken.

    "counters":
    Slowbro: 2hkod by a +2 Jolly Air Bloon EQ from Exca
    Suicune: read above
    Conkeldurr OHKOd by Excadrill set mentioned
    Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs 4hp Excadrill: 2hko. Excadrill wins anyway.

    +2 Landorus EQ:
    Slowbro OHKOd
    Suicune OHKOd

    Hail: Completely fine.
    Sun: Ban Ninetales. Same reason as Drizzletoed really.

    Re: Weather in OU: Should it be Banned or Not?

    Post by Not So Gallant Gallade on Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:09 pm

    Why aren't people simply using the Weatherless tier? Those who hate weather, either because they just can't take the fact that weather rules this generation and aren't willing to make the according changes, or just because they like facing teams without seeing a certain green amphibious pokemon or a lightly-colored canine pokemon or... Tyranitar and the Yeti, should just use that tier, rather than forcing a chasm to be made in the whole OU tier.

    I mean, sure, we could definitely ban politoed, or the ability Drizzle, or pull a Smogon and ban Drizzle with Swift Swim. And we could do the same with Ninetales or Drought or whatever other options present themselves. And yeah, same goes for Sand Streamers and whatever makes them broken.

    ...nobody has any problems with Hail. Even though I freaking love my Hail team, nobody has any issues. xD

    Also, if any WiFi tournaments come up, nobody with a Weather team can participate. Just a note.

    But my point is this: we should not ban weather in OU, because
    A. We have an option for those who dislike facing weather teams.
    and
    B. There are so many more flexible options, based on what the specific problems are with weather, to ban or restrict the things that are really honestly broken, rather than going overkill and banning weather altogether.
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    Re: Weather in OU: Should it be Banned or Not?

    Post by ThePurpleMeerkat on Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:36 pm

    You ARE joking, right?

    with A: Nobody plays that tier. Same with Little Cup, Challenge Cup, VGC, Gen 3, and Monotype (among more), nobody plays them, and I mean EVER. We need less tiers. Everyone plays DW or Wifi, simply because nobody plays the other tiers. I mean the main three used tiers: OU, Ubers, and UU. Nobody uses the other tiers and so everyone just bandwagons and starts playing OU, whether they like it or not. If people actually played it, then I would, but they dont. Case closed.

    B: I made a point on that. Weather in general shouldn't be banned, only certain aspects of it. I do however disagree with the counters thing you mentioned.

    Name ONE single pokémon that can kill both Landorus and Excadrill, or can successfully counter Kingdra Omastar Ludicolo Kabutops and Toxicroak. You simply can't counter them. Also, don't talk about that bullshit Ferrothorn, sure it can set up entry hazards, but half the weather sweepers also have set up moves and can just use stat boosting moves. Thunder Wave? lol Landorus and Excadrill. Some use Gyro Ball, some use Power Whip. Gyro ball gets walled by pretty much every rain sweeper, provided they can avoid being 2HKOd, which quite a lot can considering how crap Ferrothorn's attack stat is. Power Whip has low pp and can be stalled out, and despite the high base power it can't really kill much.
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    Weather in OU

    Post by harsha on Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:17 pm

    From my experience, nobody even uses drizzle + swift swim on the server anyways, and Toxicroak will be rendered useless by burn or paralysis. Excadrill may seem broken, but his attack stat is 135, meaning a good physical wall will stop him in his tracks... Or even a special wall like Jellicent. In fact, he fails to OHKO lots of Pokemon with middling defenses. Nobody seems to be complaining about hail because it is rarely used, and drought teams lose to stealth rocks. Anyways, ThePurpleMeerkat pointed out that no one uses the weatherless tier. That tier was made so that people would not be able to exploit weather in OU battles. If everyone that opposed weather used the weatherless tier, then people could have weather battles in one tier and others could have non-weather battles in the other.

    P.S. Lots of people play challenge cup and monotype. There also is a server dedicated to VGC. And no one plays Gen. 3 because Pokemon is in its fifth generation. And Ferrothorn has a decent attack stat, not a "crap attack stat."
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    Re: Weather in OU: Should it be Banned or Not?

    Post by Sufat Sheleg on Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:13 pm

    Simply put, Ice Shard pokemon or Weavile puts down Landorus. Excadrill can be devastating, though. Excadrill and the Swift Swimmers should be discouraged or banned, but Toxicroak, Landorus, Gliscor, and all the rest should be legal. The problem lies with the fact that EVERY pokemon has an appropriate counter-just not all counters are typically seen.

    If something is so powerful that unless you HAVE to DELIBERATELY put in a counter for it, it should be banned. I jsut don't think that Landorus fits that bill (although I mostly run hail teams and fast ice users, so I may be wrong. Correct me if I am).
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    Re: Weather in OU: Should it be Banned or Not?

    Post by ThePurpleMeerkat on Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:25 am

    Why ban Swift Swimmers though? They're too many of them to ban. Kabutops makes a good swords dancer outside of rain, Omastar is good to set up hazards, and Ludicolo can be a good staller, Kingdra can do basically everything. What can Politoed do besides make everlasting rain? This is why it should be Poli who goes, not the swift swimmers.

    Also, Weavile? Seriously? Weavile is NEVER used, and futhermore, using it simply to battle Landorus is overcentrilization, not that it can do that very well. It can't switch into ANY attack Landorus has, so you have to let something die first, and even then your opponent can simply switch out and wait until Weavile dies to whatever else you have.
    Also, you didn't name a counter to Excadrill, just implied "anything bulky".
    and Jellicent? a +2 Jolly Air Balloon Excadrill does 77.23 - 90.84 to 252/224 Jellicent (standard physically bulky wall), a guarenteed OHKO including sandstorm and Stealth Rock, and goddamn likely without even without inputting the sandstorm damage. Also, you said "special wall like Jellicent", but this is a physical variant, proving it is not a counter. Also, nobody has specified a single counter to Landorus, the only ones I've found are Gliscor and Skarmory, both of which can be taken out pretty easily, and aren't around much late game.

    PS: Ice Shard from LO Jolly Weavile doesn't even 2HKO Excadrill, which means you need more than one user of priority to actually revenge kill it, one of which having Mach Punch. Technician Breloom can OHKO it though I guess.

    ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
    Harsha:
    You say "135 Attack" like it's bad. It's not, a +2 EQ kills a lot of stuff, and Landorus kills even more. *cough*Jolly+2LOLandorus OHKOs 252/252 Hippowdon when including very small previous damage*cough*

    Also, Toxicroak first. Sub beats WoW or Twave, so then what can, say, Jellicent do?
    Shadow Ball is the only move that can break a substitute, and Toxicroak gets most of the hp back via dry skin. Meanwhile, +1 Sucker Punch 2HKOs, which means Toxicroak can just sub while Jellicent recovers, and get up multiple Bulk Ups, giving a better chance of sweeping. Toxicroak is faster too. Fails to OHKO? Maybe, but not after a few bulk ups, which is arguably his best set.

    If everyone used Non-Weather: Yes, then it would be used, but I could say the same thing about Gen 3, people just don't. Also, the few people that do play it are rarely on at the same time, so after waiting for ten mins or so, they give up. Nobody plays it. Also, people DON'T often play LC or CC. I haven't seen one on Treehouse yet. And a server, maybe, but that's a different server, not Treehouse. That's the entire point.


    PS: Not many people play CC or Monotype, compared to OU, and I'm talking about Treehouse in general. Sure it's 5th Gen, but that doesn't mean people don't play other gens. People on Shoddy were content to play Gen IV instead of getting PO for a while. And yes, Ferrothorn does have a crap attack stat. If Excadrill's 135 Attack stat isn't very good, then Ferro's 94 is just plain shitty.
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    Weather in OU

    Post by harsha on Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:03 am

    I didn't say that 135 attack is bad, I'm saying that Excadrill fails to OHKO Pokemon such as Hydreigon with middling defenses with a supereffective move such as x-scissor. Landorus carries a 4x ice weakness which can get exploited, and 94 attack is great for a wall. Also, I didn't say ban swift swimmers, but ban using swift swim on the same team as drizzle like Smogon did.
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    Re: Weather in OU: Should it be Banned or Not?

    Post by ThePurpleMeerkat on Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:34 am

    Firstly:
    252 +2 Atk Excadrill X-Scissor vs 4 HP/0 Def Hydreigon: 120.25% - 141.72%
    100% chance to OHKO

    Also, Excadrill almost always get's a swords dance up.

    Landorus having ice weakness? According to bulbapedia:
    "As of Generation V, there are 31 Ice-type Pokémon or 4.78% of all Pokémon, making it the fifteenth most common elemental type, or effectively the third least common type ahead of the Dragon and Ghost types."

    That leaves Donphan and bulky waters. As mentioned, shit like Slowbro and Suicune are OHKOd by a +2 Landorus, and according to further calcs, so is 252/252 Relaxed Swampert.
    Donphan is also rarely used, and aside from Landorus and the 4x weak Dragons, ice shard has no use, and is generally not used unless someone is really having troubles with Landorus.

    And why not simply ban Drizzle altogether? It's not swift swim that's broken, it's the fact that the rain is everlasting. Also, that's goddamn hard to code so the server might have trouble inputting that.
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    Re: Weather in OU: Should it be Banned or Not?

    Post by Sufat Sheleg on Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:53 am

    You vastly overestimate the power of Landorus. Any Ice move can kill it.

    You want a counter for Excadrill? Fine. Skarmory, Gliscor, Air Balloon pokemon, Mach Punch, Bronzong, etc.
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    Re: Weather in OU: Should it be Banned or Not?

    Post by ThePurpleMeerkat on Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:25 pm

    lol, Skarm and Gliscor, any more? Besides them you haven't given any proper counters.

    Ice Shard? As previously mentioned, there are barely any ice types and besides Mamoswine none of them can really do much to a sandstorm team. "Air Balloon" like who, for example? Also, you really overestimate air balloon, it only lasts until it gets hit by another move, and since Excadrill is a late game sweeper, it's unlikely your pokemon will still have it intact. also, Mach Punch? as mentioned, Breloom is the only mach punch user that can OHKO it, as Bulk Up Conkeldurr fails to OHKO whereas it dies to a +2 Earthquake.
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    Weather in OU

    Post by harsha on Sun Jul 17, 2011 8:34 pm

    Air balloon Terrakion with Close Combat beats Excadrill. We also didn't say use an ice type 'mon, but use an ice type move. And Excadrill doesn't "almost always" get a swords dance up if you play it correctly. Plus, Gliscor and Skarmory are two super common Pokemon in OU, which Sufat correctly stated will not get 2HKOd by Excadrill.
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    Re: Weather in OU: Should it be Banned or Not?

    Post by Nobody on Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:39 am

    ThePurpleMeerkat wrote:You ARE joking, right?

    with A: Nobody plays that tier. Same with Little Cup, Challenge Cup, VGC, Gen 3, and Monotype (among more), nobody plays them, and I mean EVER. We need less tiers. Everyone plays DW or Wifi, simply because nobody plays the other tiers.

    Yes we do play those tiers as we feel like it. I play Monotype sometimes with Normal or Ghost types =D. Sheleg runs Ice mono i believe. CC is actually kind of common but it's just that we main on our self-picked teams. LC is kind of uncommon but there are some people who play it. I can agree with VGC and somewhat for other gens, but there are quite a few who do play them.
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    Re: Weather in OU: Should it be Banned or Not?

    Post by ThePurpleMeerkat on Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:09 am

    Air Balloon is too situational though, and often you'll find that relying on it doesn't always work, and what ice type moves? As mentioned, all the bulky waters are OHKOd by +2 Landorus, which leaves nothing but Donphan, who sucks with Ice Shard and can't use it on anything besides 4x, making it useless otherwise. Donphan and Mamoswine are the only real "checks" for Landorus, and even then, they aren't counters, only revenge killers. If you have to let something die in order to bring it in, then it's killed something and therefore done it's job. Why did we ban Garchomp last Gen? Because it had a guarenteed kill. If we're going to follow that rule, it's only fair that Landorus should be banned also.

    PS: Don't start an argument about Jirachi or Machamp getting a guarenteed kill, because they aren't valid arguments. They're luck based and ergo can be stopped with luck of your own. Landorus however doesn't need luck, and will get a kill 4/5 games if played correctly.
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    Re: Weather in OU: Should it be Banned or Not?

    Post by Sufat Sheleg on Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:20 pm

    OK. Let's actually lay down some facts.

    Air Balloon Heatran is VERY common in OU. 50% of Heatrans I see have Air Balloon, and I regularly compete in the OU tier. Personal experience. Also, 10% of Chandelures run Air Balloon, which is a lot when you take into account that Chandelure is extremely common.

    Both Heatran and Chandelure, when given the air balloon, are fine counters for Excadrill. Donphan is not just a revenge killer for Landorus. And, might I add, Revenge Killers are still counters. Weavile with Ice Shard works too.

    Oh, and what about LEVITATE. Excadrill loses a lot of its ability to threaten things without EQ. Rotom-H and Rotom-W are good counters for Exca, being bulky and floating. Flying Types work to a lesser extent.
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    Weather in OU

    Post by harsha on Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:53 pm

    Sufat is correct. Also, bulky waters, Donphans, and Mamoswine are definitely not the only Pokemon with ice moves. Gliscor, a fine counter to both Landorus and Excadrill can carry ice fang which will stop Landorus in its tracks. If Excadrill is on a balloon, Gliscor will break the balloon with a move and proceed to use Earthquake and defeat Excadrill. Another counter to Landorus is the very commonly used Latios. My Latios carries ice beam. I have never had Landorus problems, and I only felt that Excadrill was broken during my first month of competitive battling.
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    Re: Weather in OU: Should it be Banned or Not?

    Post by Sufat Sheleg on Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:23 am

    Now that you mention it...Landorus isn't terribly common, even on Sandstorm teams. I've only seen them using in like 1 out of 10 sandstorm teams.

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