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    The Persistence of Memory - An Offensive Take on Stall

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    harsha
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    The Persistence of Memory - An Offensive Take on Stall

    Post by harsha on Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:08 am

    The Persistence of Memory - An Offensive Take on Stall



    Introduction

    First off, I’d like to introduce the painting before you; it’s “The Persistence of Memory” by Salvador Dali. No, I did not choose the name randomly. I actually chose it for quite a few reasons. For one, a present theme throughout the work is time. Time is an aspect in Pokémon, and it’s a major influence in stall battles. Secondly, it’s an abstract painting, and the team I made looked pretty abstract to me in the team preview. Now, I brought up stall because I designed this team after trying out a new play-style. For those who have followed my last few RMTs, you should know that I’m mainly an offensive player, and that most of my teams use Volt-Turn to some extent. However, I chose to use stall because I wanted to try something new.

    With that said, stall was easily the hardest play-style for me to adapt to. While offensive teams just needed to break down walls, stall needed much, much more. I had to make sure that every single threat in the meta game was adequately covered, and I had to make sure that random crap didn’t take down my team. I frequently found weaknesses to Volcarona, Raikou, and sweepers of that caliber, as they often took down my teams with ease. However, I adapted the team after all of these losses and I’m fairly proud of what they turned into. The play-style of stall itself is actually not too difficult, as it relies on very good synergy and some prediction to win, as opposed to offensive teams that rely on lots of prediction. I’ll introduce the team building process to show you how the team has significantly adapted over time.

    Team Building Thoughts

    Phase 1:


    My first variant of the team actually was fairly successful, but I soon ran into my biggest problem, Volcarona. Not a single Pokémon on my team could touch Volcarona, and all of the team did not resist either of its STABs bar Tentacruel, who could not do anything in return. Though hazards gave Volcarona a tough time, most are paired with spinners like Starmie who take care of Gengar with ease. Bar that one threat, I actually saw a fair amount of success with the team. Offesive Heatran worked very well as it was quite unexpected on stall teams, but things like Tentacruel and Celebi were just flat out underperforming. One probably sees a resemblance to Tabloo at this point, and though I used similar Pokémon, the team was actually quite different. However, Tabloo was what gave me a starting point. I tried to diverge from it as time went by.

    Phase 2:


    Phase two was just simply as unsuccessful as phase one. I tried to change the sets that I ran, but I still was very weak to Raikou and Volcarona, and I needed an out to escape their wrath. Starmie gave the team a hassle as well, and Celebi started to underperform. If anyone had two of the three above Pokémon paired, I was simply screwed. This prompted a few rage quits and stuff of that nature. I nearly gave up trying to play stall, but I decided to trek on and see what I could come up with. First, I realized that I needed a quick fix to my weakness to Starmie, as it would spin away hazards with ease.

    Phase 3:


    At this point, I had Volcarona and Raikou at bay pretty much. Gengar did a good job of beating Aura Sphere variants of Raikou, while Ferrothorn took down the other types. Gyarados provided me with insurance against Volcarona, and it did well against opposing sand teams like Skarmory did. However, I also had Ferrothorn to also bug sand teams, and lay Spikes down like Skarmory used to, so I found no problems other than the lack of Taunt. Heatran changed to a completely different variant that I made up because I no longer had Volcarona problems, but it gained Roar in case I ever saw a rampant Volcarona raging through my team. The current team did well against most teams, but Reuniclus proved to be a threat, and Tentacruel stopped pulling its weight. However, I started to play Tentacruel more conservatively, and it worked out very well. I immediately saw a difference, and I immediately started winning at least 90% of my games due to Toxic Spikes. They broke down Blissey and Chansey so that even Gengar could beat the blobs. I owe a lot of my success with the team to Tentacruel.

    Closer Look


    Heatran @ Leftovers | Flash Fire
    Timid Nature | 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Fire Blast | Stealth Rock | Roar | Substitute


    At first, I used an offensive variant of Heatran. Then, Volcarona—even Hidden Power Rock variants—ate my team alive. However, I completely missed the power that offensive Heatran had when I tried out defensive Heatran. Eventually, I decided to blend the two sets together; the results actually impressed me a lot. I EVed Heatran so that it would be able to out-speed neutral natured base 80s and set up on them. I maximized Special Attack so that I could hit Pokémon like Gliscor hard; this thing scores a 2HKO on HP invested Gliscor, while it OHKOs those without HP investment. I play Heatran fairly liberally as long as I have already put Stealth Rock on the field. I switch it in on Fire-type moves aimed at Celebi and Ferrothorn, and I proceed to play on from there. However, Heatran is also usually my lead. I usually dedicate my first turn to making a sub, and then using the next few to react to the situation at hand.

    The set is fairly straightforward, though it is also very unconventional. I chose to run Fire Blast because it grabs OHKOs and 2HKOs on so many Pokémon in OU. Though one may think that running Fire Blast as my only attacking move leaves me open against the likes of Heatran, Jellicent, and company, Roar allows me to pHaze them away and retain the ability to stay in. Substitute is great when used in tandem with Roar, as it allows me to escape a potentially threatening move and Roar away threats to the team. It’s also great when a Pokémon tries to use Heatran as set-up fodder because it ruins the opponent’s hard work. Stealth Rock is obviously a necessity on this set. When I set up a sub, I have to options; I can either use Stealth Rock or Fire Blast. Or course if the opponent uses Dragon Dance or something, I can use Roar, but that’s not very often. Anyhow, like I said earlier, Fire Blast is pure power, and it hits super hard—even resists have to watch out. Stealth Rock damages the opponent every time he or she switches out, so it is obviously really helpful down the lines; it punishes the opponent when he or she tries to grab momentum.


    Celebi @ Leftovers | Natural Cure
    Modest Nature | 252 HP / 152 SpA / 100 Spe
    Leaf Storm | Thunder Wave | Hidden Power Fire | Recover


    This is a modified version of Tinkerbell Celebi, one of the most useful Celebi’s out there in my opinion. It thrives because most of the Pokémon who are unaffected by Toxic Spikes, as those are usually neutered by paralysis; examples of this include Latios, Dragonite, Skarmory, and even things like Heatran (caught on the switch) who are immune to Toxic Spikes. The EVs are my own creation, and they allow Celebi to out-speed standard Dragon Dance Dragonite, while allotting the EVs that weren’t used in Speed to Special Attack. I maxed out Celebi’s HP because I wanted it to be able to absorb blows with ease. Natural Cure is a major boon to Celebi because it allows it to act as my status absorber, meaning that no Pokémon on my team should ever be affected by harmful status.

    Celebi functions well in tandem with Heatran due to their more-than-solid defensive synergy. Also, Celebi takes down Pokémon that give Heatran trouble, such as Jellicent, Gastrodon, and other bulky Water-types. Leaf Storm is pure, bottled up power; it lands KOs on Fighting-types that would be threatening otherwise, and it’s especially useful for the aforementioned bulky Waters. Hidden Power Fire is my best bet against Scizor; after Stealth Rock damage, it is a guaranteed OHKO. It also helps immensely against Ferrothorn, though Ferrothorn can tank hits. Thunder Wave is to paralyze faster Pokémon that can avoid Toxic Spikes like Latios and company. Recover is a necessity because it allows Celebi to shrug off weaker attacks and regain health. Honestly, this Celebi set has been so effective for me that I haven’t even bothered experimenting with others, let alone switching the Pokémon. It brings a solid offensive presence to a stall team, and it takes hits like a champ.


    Tentacruel @ Black Sludge | Liquid Ooze
    Bold Nature | 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
    Surf | Ice Beam | Rapid Spin | Toxic Spikes


    Though it looks like a piece of garbage, Tentacruel provides unbelievable support for the team. I have to admit, Gamefreak was not very kind when it drew up Tentacruel, but they gave it just the right tools to work with. I send out Tentacruel when I am certain that the opponent is going to use a weak attack, and I need something to tank the hit. From that point, Tentacruel just wrecks teams that lack spinners—both directly and indirectly. Liquid Ooze versus Rain Dish was a debate I had with myself. Though rain is a common weather, and Tentacruel can make good use of that, I chose to use Liquid Ooze so that I could deal with Virizion, Conkeldurr, and Ferrothorn by annoying them. The EVs maximize HP and give a giant buffer to Defense because bulk is important for reliable Rapid Spin users not named Starmie. Also, the impish nature helps me tank physical hits as well.

    While the moveset is not to complicated, it often forces me to make many choices. For one, I have to decide what is more valuable for my team at every point in the battle; do I need to lay Toxic Spikes or spin away hazards? Laying Toxic Spikes is always important, as it allows me to take down things like Blissey, Chansey, and other walls with Gengar or Gyarados. However, if Stealth Rock is on the field, I may have to clear it for Gyarados to successfully wall, especially if Gyarados does not have full health. Also, if the opponent has Spikes stacked up, I’ll usually spin them away. I try to play Tentacruel as conservatively as possible (i.e. not sending Tentacruel out against Earthquake users, etc.) because Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spin themselves go a long way. Surf is used instead of Scald because the little bit of extra power is appreciated in some cases, and I won’t be trying to burn foes because I am laying Toxic Spikes on the field. However, I do toggle between the two moves, so I may switch to Scald to cover Ferrothorn. Ice Beam is used so that Dragon-types do not rampage through my team if Ferrothorn is down, as that can be calamitous. Anyhow, there isn’t anything special about Tentacruel other than the support it offers; however, that support is what landed a spot on the team for Tentacruel.


    Ferrothorn @ Leftovers | Iron Barbs
    Careful Nature | 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 SpD
    Spikes | Leech Seed | Power Whip | Protect


    Though I promised I would never use Ferrothorn again, I must admit that I lied to myself. Ferrothorn provides many things that this team needs; for starters, it provides a solid Electric resist. Also, it packs Spikes, which is great for semi-stall teams. Ferrothorn finds plenty of switch-ins on Water-type moves aimed at Heatran, Electric-type moves aimed at Gyarados and Tentacruel, and even Steel- or Bug-type attacks from Scizor. I do have to watch out for errant Superpowers, but that’s not a big issue. The EVs are standard, with Special Defense and Defense EVs flipped. The reason I did this was not to tank a specific hit, but rather because I thought I needed a bit more physical bulk for the team. The careful nature makes up for the lack of EVs in Special Defense, so all is not lost. Iron Barbs is also cool, and it works well with the high Defense. When a Pokémon attacks me, I can expect it to do little damage to Ferrothorn, and damage itself with recoil; this is useful for things like Scizor locked into Bullet Punch with 5% of its HP left.

    The moveset is fitted to match my team well. Since stall enjoys hazards a lot, Spikes is on there. Even one layer of Spikes can benefit immensely, as it destroys Volt-Turn teams that utilize Scizor. Scizor takes over 35% damage every single time it switches in if I get all three layers down (given that Stealth Rock is already laid), so I can expect my team to effectively wear down my opponent’s offensive momentum. Since Ferrothorn can wear down momentum so effectively, it’s often my main switch-in on Rotom-W, Landorus, and even Scizor. Leech Seed gives Ferrothorn extra health, as well as more reliability. It also forces lots of switches, giving my team momentum. I can use it in tandem with Protect to further weaken the opponent. It can also give me extra turns to lay down Spikes. Spikes residual damage goes a long way when talking about walls that can hurt the team; this especially includes Gengar and Gyarados, as they are the offensive presences on the team. Power Whip is used because I don’t want for Ferrothorn to become Taunt bait. It hurts Gyarados, and it prevents him from setting up on me. It also makes Starmie think twice about switching into Ferrothorn to remove hazards. Ferrothorn is one of the most indispensable pieces for the team, but I always have to make sure that my opponent cannot turn it into set-up fodder. Aside from that, I cannot see myself replacing Ferrothorn any time soon.


    Gyarados @ Leftovers | Intimidate
    Impish Nature | 48 HP / 252 Def / 208 Spe
    Substitute | Dragon Dance | Waterfall | Bounce


    As a primarily offensive-minded player, I decided to take an offensive interpretation on stall. Gyarados is the offspring of this mindset, as it walls opponents effectively and has the ability to hit back hard. “But why Gyarados?,” you may ask. Gyarados is my best bet against the likes of Volcarona, who would destroy the team otherwise. Obviously, I couldn’t have my team falling to common Pokémon, so I knew that Gyarados was the best choice when I factored in its ability, Intimidate. Intimidate is the reason Gyarados walls so effectively. With 252 Defense EVs, 48 HP EVs, and Intimidate, even boosted physical attackers will have problems trying to take down Gyarados. The 208 Speed EVs allow me to out-speed Starmie at +1, and not maximizing them allows me to retain some EVs for HP.

    The set capitalizes on Gyarados’s ability to effectively wall physical threats. Substitute is usually used when forcing an opponent out, as the loss of Attack usually forces switches unless the opponent is desperate. Once behind the sub, I can Dragon Dance until the sub is broken and try and set up a new sub, or just try and plow through the opponent. Of course, I could opt to not even wait until the sub is broken to attack if I really want to keep it; this is usually the case against teams carrying Rotom-W. Leftovers is used due to Substitute; it mitigates the damage that subs cause, and it also allows me to set more subs up. After Dragon Dancing to my heart’s content, Waterfall and Bounce provide two STAB options that get very good coverage together. The few Pokémon who are not hit hard by either move (Lanturn, Rotom-W) are either very uncommon in OU, or usually run Volt Switch neutering their capability to take on this set effectively. Volcarona is hit super effectively by both moves, so it doesn’t prove to be a problem for this team—even when boosted.


    Gengar @ Black Sludge | Levitate
    Timid Nature | 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Focus Blast | Shadow Ball | Disable | Substitute


    Though SubDisable Gengar may seem like an odd choice for stall-oriented teams, the fact of the matter is that most Pokémon only carry a move or two with the ability to hit Gengar, and that they don’t have much Speed compared to the poltergeist. Gengar brings many things to the table; for one, he can switch on Ground-, Fighting-, or even Normal-type moves aimed at any of my Pokémon. Since Heatran has a weakness to both Ground and Fighting, Gengar sees many opportunities to go and wreak havoc. Additionally, Gengar hits like a champ. The EVs in Special Attack and Speed maximize Gengar’s prowess, and they, along with the timid nature, ensure that Terrakion cannot touch me. Speaking of Terrakion, it should be noted that the standard Substitute + Swords Dance set loses to Gengar due to Terrakion’s only having one move to hit Gengar with.

    The moveset is standard, but it is quite effective. Substitute works well because Gengar forces so many switches. With protection from revenge-killers, Gengar starts its work. Common switch-ins include Scizor and special walls. However, when playing Scizor, I use Disable immediately to force a switch, because it is most likely a Choice Band variant using Bullet Punch. This ensures that I get another sub up, and it also forces the opponent to either switch out or use Struggle. Special walls that switch in should always be lured onto a field with full Toxic Spikes so that Gengar can take advantage of them. Things like Blissey and Chansey do not touch Gengar, while Toxic Spikes will slowly whittle away at their health. Additionally, things like Gastrodon will be hurt by Disable, and Toxic Spikes will eat their health away as well. The only problem with this strategy is that Milotic with Refresh and Recover can evade it, but Milotic is rarely seen in BW OU, so it’s no problem. Besides, Milotic has trouble with Ferrothorn and Celebi, so it’s not a big deal. Shadow Ball and Focus Blast are the two coverage moves used, as they have perfect coverage and high power. Black Sludge is the item instead of Leftovers only because of Trick, though I don’t think there’s much of a difference between the two. It helps me heal HP every time I use Substitute, which is really useful considering how many times Gengar is used.

    Export to Text

    Please keep the names if using my team. I worked hard on it, so I believe I should receive credit. Also, the Pokémon are all named after my favorite candies because I could not think of a better option. Again, feel free to test it out.
    Code:
    Skittles (Celebi) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 156 SAtk / 100 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Leaf Storm
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Thunder Wave
    - Recover
     
    Twix (Heatran) (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Substitute
    - Fire Blast
    - Stealth Rock
    - Roar
     
    M&M's (Tentacruel) (F) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Liquid Ooze
    EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Ice Beam
    - Surf
    - Rapid Spin
     
    Jawbreakers (Ferrothorn) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 SDef
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Spikes
    - Leech Seed
    - Power Whip
    - Protect
     
    Twizzlers (Gyarados) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 48 HP / 252 Def / 208 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Dragon Dance
    - Substitute
    - Waterfall
    - Bounce
     
    LifeSavers (Gengar) (F) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Substitute
    - Disable
    - Shadow Ball
    - Focus Blast
    Conclusion

    Now, I have no impressive ladder peak to share because of one sole reason; laddering with this team is awful. Battles last for at least 35 turns, and I do not have the kind of patience to pull that off. Additionally, I’m used to offensive battles that take about 20 turns, so you can imagine that I like quick battles. I laddered to the 1300s on the beta server before deciding that laddering would be too tough to continue, due to the amount of time dedicated to each match. However, that doesn’t change my opinion towards this team.

    This is probably one of my favorite teams to use at this point given the amount of success it has enjoyed, and I will probably try to make a few more stall teams at some point. However, team building with stall was brutal. The play-style itself was straightforward, but covering every major threat in the meta game was simply horrendous. Since the meta game is currently more-or-less dominated by offense, I had to take all the common threats into account because playing against some teams that 6-0 me with just one Pokémon is never fun. Obviously, I had to counter things like Volt-Turn, weather offense, and bulky offense, and I think I did a really good job (hopefully). Eyeballing the team to look for major threats didn’t work as simple play testing, and stall required a lot of that. Still, I’m glad that I dabbled into stall, as it’s one of the easiest and most fun styles to use.

    Before I finish, I would like to thank a few members of the community for all the support they have given me. First and foremost, I’d like to thank Wario is OSSIM for helping me playtest teams, as well as (unofficially) tutoring me in competitive battling. I’d also like to thank Expert Physics for playtesting with me, as playtesting is one of the most important things to do with a stall team. Additionally, I would like to thank Pocket, Delko, and some others for warmly welcoming me into the community, as well as being very helpful in their respective specialties around the site. Last, but not least, I would like to thank all of you for reading through my RMT. I had fun writing this, and I hope you had fun reading it. Thanks, guys!
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    harsha
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    Re: The Persistence of Memory - An Offensive Take on Stall

    Post by harsha on Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:08 am

    Feel free to rate it while I compile a threatlist.

    Threatlist:
    Threats
    Tyranitar:

    • Choice Band - Best way for every team to deal with this is prediction. Ferrothorn + Gyarados (Intimidate) goes a long way
    • Choice Scarf - Same deal as above, though these have less Attack so they're less of a threat.
    • Dragon Dance - Ferrothorn with Power Whip, Leech Seed, and Protect works well here. They shouldn't KO even if they carry Fire Punch.

    Rotom-W:

    • Choice Scarf / Specs - Ferrothorn and Celebi beat this thing. Just have to watch for Trick.

    Scizor:

    • Choice Band - Should Stealth Rock be on the field, Celebi will actually OHKO standard variants. I usually use Heatran here.
    • Swords Dance - Heatran beats this thing badly.

    Dragonite:

    • Choice Band - I HAVE to have SR on the field. Usually rely on Ferrothorn to bust me out of here.
    • Dragon Dance - SR is a must again. I use Celebi to take a hit and paralyze him. I just have to work from there with Tentacruel's Ice Beam.
    • Mixed - Mixed is slowed and packs less of a punch, so Ferrothorn and Tentacruel do well here.
    • Parashuffler - Haven't seen one, but SR helps immensely. Also, I need to make sure I don't let Ferrothorn become set up fodder.

    Politoed:

    • Choice Specs / Scarf - Prediction games with Ferrothorn.

    Heatran:

    • Standard - Gyarados says bye.

    Jirachi:

    • Substitute + Calm Mind / Wish + Calm Mind - SubCM Rachi is always annoying. Just have to play around it with Heatran and Celebi. Gengar is useful for disabling moves and then allowing Heatran to come in.

    Latios:

    • Life Orb - If it has HP Fire, I would know thanks to Protect on Ferrothorn. If not, he's screwed.
    • Choice Scarf / Specs - Prediction games with synergy as always.
    • Calm Mind - Paralyze it with Celebi and then pHaze it with Heatran. Gengar can come in after it's paralyzed if it's the last Pokemon.

    Reuniclus:

    • Calm Mind - Big threat. I hate this thing. I have to pHaze it and then deal with it at the end with Gengar. I use Perish Song over Thunder Wave on the team sometimes because I am scared of Reuniclus.
    • Offensive Trick Room - Not too big of a threat because it doesn't do too much damage, but I have to watch out. Paralysis with Celebi is usually a good idea, followed by pHazing.

    Haxorus:

    • Choice Scarf / Choice Band - Prediction games with Ferrothorn. Leech Seed, hazard damage, and Protect recovery add up.
    • Dragon Dance - Toxic Spikes come in handy, and Ferrothorn helps me out. If it runs Lum Berry, I can paralyze it with Celebi. Then I can double switch to Ferrothorn with Gyarados to get an Intimidate in. After that, Leech Seed wears it down.
    • Double Dance - Combination of both of the above methods.

    Ninetales:

    • Nasty Plot - Heatran.
    • Choice Specs - Heatran.
    • Special Attacker - Heatran. I can even try to set up with Gyarados, but I'll usually just use Heatran.

    Conkeldurr:

    • Bulk Up - Gyarados is a solid check, but not perfect. Gengar gives it fits, though. I can also paralyze with Celebi.

    Celebi:

    • Nasty Plot Sweeper - Tricky. I have to make sure that it doesn't have Earth Power to use Heatran. Gengar works well because it outspeeds.
    • Tinkerbell - Gengar does solidly, but my own Celebi also can help out.
    • Choice Specs / Choice Scarf - Prediction games between Heatran, Ferrothorn, and Gengar.

    Terrakion:

    • Double Dance - Switch to Gengar. If it uses Rock Polish, I have to do some double switches to get to Gyarados so I can Intimidate it.
    • Choice Scarf / Choice Band - Prediction between Gengar, Celebi, and Gyarados.
    • Substitute + Swords Dance - Gengar always.

    Gyarados:

    • Offensive / Bulky Dragon Dance - Celebi paralyzes it, and Ferrothorn is solid as well.

    Gengar:

    • Substitute + Disable / Pain Split - Tough. I can usually exploit Gyarados for this, and Tentacruel does solidly.

    Starmie:

    • Life Orb - Ferrothorn.
    • Rapid Spin - Ferrothorn.
    • Choice Specs - Ferrothorn.

    Landorus:

    • Rock Polish / Swords Dance - I can attempt to stop the Swords Dance set with Gengar, who can SubDisable Stone Edge, and Landorus cannot hurt with Earthquake. The Rock Polish set is beaten by Ferrothorn, and Gyarados's Intimidate helps.
    • Choice Scarf - Ferrothorn is amazing here.
    • Substitute + 3 Attacks - Gengar is my best option, but Ferrothorn also helps here.

    Infernape:

    • Mixed Attacker - Tough due to the coverage. Gyarados works well here, though.
    • Nasty Plot / Swords Dance Booster - Gengar should win this fight, and Gyarados / Tentacruel helps.
    • Choice Band - Gyarados and Gengar all the way. Heatran can come in on Flare Blitzes, but I have to be conservative.

    Volcarona:

    • Offensive Quiver Dance - Heatran (assuming no HP Ground) and Gyarados.
    • Bulky Quiver Dance - Heatran (assuming no HP Ground) and Gyarados.
    • Chesto Rest - Heatran and Gyarados.
    • Substitute - Heatran and Gyarados.

    Magnezone:

    • Substitute - Heatran can get into a Sub war and win.
    • Choice Scarf - Usually Heatran will win this fight.

    Espeon:

    • Calm Mind - Boosting Espeon is tough. I have to rely on a Speed tie by Gengar, and if that fails, Gyarados is my only way to beat it. Thank god this is rare. I don't have many ways to combat it. That being said, with HP Fire, Heatran beats it. With HP Ground, Gengar can attempt to SubDisable.

    Salamence:

    • Dragon Dance - Celebi can try to paralyze it, and Tentacruel can take unboosted Earthquakes.
    • Mixed - Tough. I just rely on synergy and Gengar's Speed and immunities to pull me through, eventually letting Tentacruel use Ice Beam.

    Hydreigon:

    • Offensive - Not too bad, as Gengar can hurt it with proper prediction. However, its coverage is amazing, so it can hurt.
    • Choice Specs / Choice Scarf - Prediction wins this war. Ferrothorn switches in on Dragon- and Dark-type moves, while Heatran and Gengar receive their switch ins. Celebi's paralysis can immensely help.

    Breloom:

    • Bulk Up - Gyarados can work well due to Bounce, and Gengar's subs and Heatran's Fire Blast really hurt the mushroom.
    • Sub Punch - I sack the weakest Pokemon and use Gengar to take it down.

    Latias:

    • Calm Mind - pHaze it away with Heatran, or paralyze it with Celebi. If it's the last Pokemon, I have to rely on Gengar, or I can use Ferrothorn's Leech Seed and stall Recover out.

    Toxicroak:

    • Swords Dance - Immediate power is annoying, but Gyarados can Bounce on it. I can also enter a prediction game with Gengar vs. its Sucker Punch.
    • Bulk Up - Gyarados can work well with Bounce, but if it has Substitute, I need to use Celebi to paralyze it and then attack with Gengar from behind a sub. Sorta tough, but it works.

    Lucario:

    • Swords Dance - Gyarados is my best bet. If it doesn't run double priority, Gengar can help out.
    • Nasty Plot - Gengar beats it. Celebi helps out with paralysis and Hidden Power Fire as well.

    Virizion:

    • Calm Mind - Toughie. I just use Celebi to paralyze it and beat it with other Pokemon.
    • Swords Dance - Gyarados with Bounce and Intimidate helps. It hits hard, though. I have to rely on perfect switches and prediction. Celebi and Gengar help here as well.

    Scrafty:

    • Dragon Dance - This is tough. If it has Shed Skin, Celebi isn't that useful. If it has Moxie, Celebi helps a lot. Heatran can do a lot of damage with Fire Blast. Gengar helps with SubDisable.
    • Bulk Up - Usually the same procedure as above. Gengar demolishes it if it manages to escape a Crunch.

    Venusaur:

    • Special Growth - Celebi's paralysis comes in handy here, if it tries to set up on Celebi. Heatran is my best answer.
    • Mixed Growth - Toughie. I usually try and paralyze it with Celebi and attack with Heatran and Celebi.
    • SubSeed - Ferrothorn deals with these adequately, and Heatran can work well if it manages to get by without getting Seeded on the switch.

    Metagross:

    • Stealth Rock - Not really a threat. Ferrothorn walls this thing completely, and Tentacruel spins away SR.
    • Choice Scarf / Choice Band - I've never seen one. However, I can attempt to keep it at bay with Heatran, Gyarados, and Ferrothorn.
    • Agility - Ferrothorn is a good Pokemon to keep this at bay, and Celebi can beat it with Thunder Wave and Hidden Power Fire.

    Mienshao:

    • All-Out Attacker - Gengar and Gyarados have to work together to beat this thing. It's really rare, though.
    • Choice Scarf / Choice Band - Takes some prediction, but Gyarados is one of the best options available. Gengar works well here as well.

    Cloyster:

    • Shell Smash - Toughie, but I can OHKO it with Heatran if it dares set up on me. Ferrothorn works well.

    Mamoswine:

    • Physical Attacker - Gyarados and Ferrothorn

    Darmanitan:

    • Choice Scarf - Gyarados and Heatran are my main options.

    Tornadus:

    • Rain Abuser - This takes a combination of Ferrothorn, Heatran, and sometimes Gyarados. It's a big threat, but I can beat it if I'm careful.


    Last edited by Harsha on Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:30 pm; edited 3 times in total
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    Trinitrotoluene
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    Re: The Persistence of Memory - An Offensive Take on Stall

    Post by Trinitrotoluene on Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:04 pm

    First off, cool team. Next, you'll need to mention a few things.

    Public Enemies:


    Reuniclus is public enemy #1 for stall. It can set up on Celebi and Ferrothorn, and attack before you force it out with Heatran. However, this fails if it's the last Pokemon on the opponent's team. It's to that extent that I would recommend Perish Song on Celebi over Thunder Wave, which conflicts with the Toxic Spikes being laid by Tentacruel. Other than that, I can't say much. Watch out for SmashPassing teams, and keep a good eye out for DDMence. Just watch out for physically offensive Dragons, seeing that they can bust Heatran up if it switches in on an Earthquake. Other than that, your team is good. I can't find many flaws.


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    Re: The Persistence of Memory - An Offensive Take on Stall

    Post by Kira Light on Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:03 pm

    Hey Harsha. A first flaw would be that you like Twizzlers and I find they taste horrible.

    Potential threats:


    In Rain, Tornadus could be a slight problem, if Heatran ever went down. A Timid Nature outspeeds your whole team (if Gyarados is unboosted), and can abuse Hurricane to rampage through your team. Since Tornadus is immune to Toxic Spikes, I'd recommend Thunder Wave over Protect for Ferrothorn, to shut it down after living a Hurricane, since it's a 2HKO, I believe. As of right now, Hurricane does 67.58% - 79.4% to Tentacruel, so it can't switch into a STAB Hurricane. Actually, bar Heatran, nothing would like switching into a Hurricane. So, in that case, you'd probably have to sacrifice a member, then bring in Tentacruel. Take a hit, and use Ice Beam. Another option would be sending a healthy Ferrothorn in, and using Thunder Wave to cripple the Cyclone Pokemon, after tanking a Hurricane. Just try to play around it, and you'll be fine. I doubt you'd let Heatran go anyways. I am also seconding Rick's recommendation of using Perish Song on Celebi. It helps to trap Reuniclus late-game, as well as forcing it to switch often. MixMence also deserves a mention as potent threat, since it can beat Ferrothorn, Celebi and Heatran with a Life Orb Draco Meteor / Fire Blast / Earthquake / Roost set. Seeing as Heatran is faster than Salamence, I'd recommend Hidden Power [Ice] over Roar or Substitute to beat Salamence. It also helps you beat Multiscale Dragonite. Salamence can also cause some troubles to Gengar, who hates switching into a Draco Meteor or Fire Blast. Nasty Plot Azelf with a Nasty Plot / Psyshock / Flamethrower / Hidden Power [Fighting] and a Life Orb could also be considered a threat to your team. It outspeeds your whole squad, and can beat Ferrothorn, Tentacruel, Gengar and Celebi at +2. It can't really get past Heatran, but it'll still be a problem if the latter goes down. It is a huge part of your defensive backbone, so be careful whilst using it, haha.

    Anyhow, I don't really see many flaws with this team. It's pretty well-built. The formatting is excellent. Nice team, Harsha!
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    Re: The Persistence of Memory - An Offensive Take on Stall

    Post by harsha on Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:59 pm

    Thanks for the rates, guys. Rick knows my response to his, so I'll respond to yours, Kira. I cannot make any of those changes bar the Perish Song one because Protect is a MUST. Ferrothorn can Leech Seed the Tornadus and then use Protect to gain back a lot of HP. While MixMence is a potent threat to all teams, I don't really need to rely on Speed to beat it. Instead, I rely on synergy. I can Intimidate it with Gyarados, then KO it with Tentacruel seeing as a +0 Earthquake will fail to OHKO. Roar and Substitutes are also MUSTS, because Roar allows me to beat Dragonite, Reuniclus, and that lot, and Substitute allows me to safely avoid them on the switch. While I can see Azelf as a threat, I think Heatran and Gyarados should beat it due to LO recoil and natural bulk. Besides, it's really uncommon. However, I can see your point about its being a threat. Thanks for the rate and compliments!

    Changes Made:
    • Perish Song > Thunder Wave on Celebi

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    Re: The Persistence of Memory - An Offensive Take on Stall

    Post by Barbeller on Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:39 am

    Actually, Gengar counters Reuniclus, seeing as a CM/Psychic/Focus Blacst/Recover set will have their Psychic disabled and then they can't do a thing.

    Other than that I agree with the rates, and Perish Song may be sensible anyway to counter set-up sweepers.

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    Re: The Persistence of Memory - An Offensive Take on Stall

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